Fairbanks energy rally draws hundreds
Published Friday, June 13, 2008
Digg
delicious
Facebook
Mixx
Reddit
Stumble It!
About 800 Fairbanks area residents sent a strong message to legislators from around Alaska that energy prices are out of control - and that they expect the state’s leadership to do something about it now.
“I think the message was real clear -- do it now,” said resident Richard Wright, leaving the We Need Energy Now rally Thursday evening with his wife, Bette. She was quick to add, “with local control.”
The event drew people from every age group to the Carlson Center, where lawmakers had gathered during the day for hearings on TransCanada’s natural gas pipeline proposal. About 30 legislators listened as a sign-toting crowd applauded speeches by several local leaders and preachers.
Fairbanks North Star Borough Mayor Jim Whitaker spoke straight to the leadership assembled.
“When homes can’t be heated and food can’t be put on the table because of the cost of trying to heat that home - we have a crisis,” he said. “Only you are the statesmen of Alaska, and only you can solve this problem.”
Rep. Beth Kerttula, a Juneau Democrat, left the rally with the message that was sent - Fairbanks is having an energy crisis, and people are hurting. She said it’s not so different from the recent electricity woes that hit Juneau.
“I really relate to it,” she said after the rally. “I’m going to do everything I can to see that you guys get the benefit of energy relief. There is no way - no way - you guys can make these prices, and we know that.”
Fairbanksan Ladd McBride hopes to see action back lawmakers’ words, and to draw attention from the Alaska Gasline Inducement Act to more immediate aid. He attended the rally with a homemade sign with an important reminder- “Fairbanks Winter 90 Days.”
“I’m very much in favor of AGIA, but we need something done now,” the career Navy man, now retired, said. “I’m on a fixed income. I haven’t seen an increase in my Navy retirement pay since I started getting it. It’s coming down to food or heat. We really don’t know what we’re going to do come winter.
“Alaska is our home. We can’t afford to stay, and we can’t afford to leave,” he said. “What do they want us to do?”
Beneath a super-sized projection of a snow-covered trans-Alaska oil pipeline and the tag “We Need Energy now,” North Pole Mayor Doug Isaacson drew repeated encouragement from the crowd as he urged lawmakers to listen.
“We implore the Legislature to concentrate on people, not simply on state dollars,” he said, cautioning of greater consequences without action. “Without energy cost relief there will be a meltdown in the Alaska economy and in the impact to houses and people here in this room that will make the 1980s look tame.”
He said relief should be equitable and should be distributed locally for maximum benefits and expediency.
Energy woes are transcending economic lines. Mariah Rice brought her baby in a stroller to the rally, hoping to get a better understanding of why her home heating bill is expected to double to $600 this winter. She figures on paying utility bills higher than her mortgage, and joked about shutting down the house and moving in with her mom. Rice is hopeful lawmakers will identify some way to ease the burden, and soon.
“Whatever solution they come to, they need to start today,” Rice said. “Winter is not too far away. A solution in December will be too late.”
Mike and Wilma Littlefield felt the pinch this week when they poured $1,100 - or 200 gallons - into their home's fuel tanks. That might last a month, Wilma said, waiting for the rally to start. Mike added that theirs is a medium-income family, and wondered how lower-income families are faring.
Mike filled out a comment card provided by the Fairbanks Economic Development Corp. He urged leaders to consider bringing the Healy coal plant online now, to develop hydropower resources and to start using state land for wind farms.
“We’re not going to get a pipe of any size up here for at least two years,” he said, charging that leaders are wasting their time and money on future projects when they could be acting on other solutions that would happen now and last for years. “I would be more than happy to sit and grill any of those guys about why they won’t do it. You’re going to lose a huge number of people, and possibly even us, because we can’t afford it.”
Jeremy Raby and a line of co-workers from Slayden Plumbing and Heat streamed into the rally after work.
He spends $200 a week in gas getting to work from Salcha - and was quick to point out that even if fuel hits $10 a gallon, he still needs to commute 40 miles to his job.
“Something needs to change,” Raby said. “We just hope they’re going to listen.”
Community Discussion
Newsminer.com doesn't necessarily condone the comments here, nor does it review every post. Read our full user's agreement.
I had to stay late at work this evening, and couldn't attend this rally even though I wanted to.
But for those of you who did, and managed to cough up the extra bucks in gasoline money to get there, I'm really proud of you, and am really glad you attended. You can add at least one person - me - who at least had the intention of demonstrating to our state legislators the severity of our need to get fuel prices under control . . . this, in a state which, at least on the books, pretends that its resources are truly in the hands of the people who live here. This, in a state, that if it abided by its own laws, would make practically millionaires of us all.
Sarcastic laugh. What a joke. Juneau, are you listening? Do you actually give a damn?
. . . cynically, I won't allow myself to believe that you actually do.
What did the Fairbanks representatives have to say? Alot of lower income families qualify for heating assistance and section 8 housing, so they actually are feeling the crunch more at the pump than housing. It is sad seeing the middle class losing their disposable income and finding themselves in the ranks of the lower income folks. Now it is wait and see for the next 60 days. Maybe next Friday the Governor will have a short term plan and call the second session.
Let's examine what would happen if the state made millionaires of all it's residents. It would take over 900 billion dollars according to the PFD managers. If each citizen invested their one million dollars at five percent interest, that would be fifty thousand dollars in interest income a year minus the federal tax of about $15,000 we would each gain about $35,000 annually for just being alive and residents. Some would gain more and some would gain less and others would just take the money and spend it until it is all gone.
Who then would do the work to provide goods and services to all us millionaires? Some people would continue to work at their current job. I propose that those with bad jobs, employers, or coworkers would up and quit. Our taxes and prices would go up to pay some out of state business to run our public services while us millionaires whined about not having anyone to stock the shelves in the grocery stores.
I would hate to be the one crunching the numbers and trying to figure out how much we can boost the individual windfall returns without breaking the overall economic system. There is a good argument for profit sharing by the state to individuals, and by my math we should easily be able to tripple the last PFD without hurting anything including the long term budget and energy plans of the state government.
I was there and it was a very good showig for a piss poor time in which it was scheduled. It was very interesting looking at the bar graphs and seeing that its 5 times more expensive to heat your home in Fairbanks than in Anchorage. I knew it was cheaper in Anchorage but din't realize it was that much cheaper in Anchorage, no wonders nothing has been done yet, the largest city is feeling no pain!
Since this is the most important issue this state has ever had to deal with, we must help the people of our state with a way to reduce our electric and heating fuel bills. I feel (and everyone that I have talked to) that if something is not done immediately, there will be lots of folks here either losing their homes and living in unbearable temperatures. We feel this is Alaska's worst state of emergency since statehood!
OUR STATE LEADERES MUST TAKE ACTION NOW!!
1700 is a poor time. Most working folks get off around then if not later. I am glad we had the turnout that we did.
Pat
JOB WAGE SHOULD RAISE UP FOLLOW TO GAS PRICE TO LEVEL WHAT U THINK IT IS FAIR ????
How does this compare to Juneau??? The towers are now fixed and they had to pay a one time electric bill of $300. Now their rates are back down to 1/2 what GVEA charges us every month. The legislature still does not have a clue at all.
If you want a solution before 2020 that does not depend on state welfare take a look at the HDPE bullet line at fairbanksgas.com. This is real technology that the rest of the world has been using for decades.
I enjoyed reading this story. But $200 a week to get to work? North Pole to Ft Knox mine...$80-100 a week for us. Maybe that guy meant per paycheck? I drive not a hair more than 55mph to save on fuel (on the Richardson). People pass me like Im standing still. Am I the only one who has tried slowing down? THANKS to all who attended the meeting!!!
Believe me when I say I understand about the fuel for the house and at the pump. We have one vehicle- a mini van - and live in North Pole. I drove my husband to work in town and the kids to school in town. We have a teenager that attends BEJSH and he takes the bus but if he misses I am driving from Eielson to Fairbanks, sometimes as much as 4 times a day. Last winter we went through 300 gallons a month for heating this house and this month my fuel surcharge was more than the energy used in the home for a whopping bill of 559.00 for one month. We are moving. I dont want to but what else can you do
I spent $9000 last spring putting in a new energy efficient boiler. My oil consumption has dropped by about 35%, but my fuel oil bill has almost quadrupled. If we do get natural gas, won't I have to spend another $9000 to buy a gas fired boiler? What we need is cheaper fuel oil. The cost of changing or modifying systems to accomodate a different fuel source will be just as cost prohibitive as the high cost of fuel oil. I check my electrical usage on my GVEA bill every month. My last bill showed I used 20 kwh per day for the current billing cycle. I used 32 kwh per day for the same period last year. My bill last year was $76. This year it was $122. I have just about run out of ways to conserve. We were planning an RV trip to Skagway next week, but we have had to cancel that. I doubt that the RV will leave North Pole all summer. It is a shame that folks are having to give up their recreational activities and not be able to enjoy the fruits of their labor.
Some credit is due here. Jay Ramras was a driving force behind this rally- as was the failure of the Palin administration to bring forward the best possible plan to build a gasline. Giving our gas liquids and value added industry to the Canadians for a pipe dream that may not even deliver gas until 2020 is pathetic.
One test of leadership in a crisis is demonstrated by the ability to think outside the box. What is the Palin administration doing to build us a gasline that is consistent with the very different circumstances we face today? Do we just pretend that the state treasury isn't overflowing with billions of dollars to build the gasline ourselves- while people here watch the economy collapse?
Kudos to Mayor Whitaker and the other speakers. It was good to see Jim on fire. That sort of passion has not been seen in a while.
It was also good to see Fairbanks residents show up in record numbers tonight. Maybe people really do care...
Costs $200 dollars to drive 400 miles. About 8 miles to the gallon. Sounds like he needs a tune-up.
I am not sure that the Carlson Center would hold everyone who would have been in attendance if the timing would have been better and Rural Alaska could afford to come to town. Governor Palin and members of the Alaska Legislature, DO YOU HEAR US???
WE NEED HELP AND WE NEED IT NOW!!!
As long as Los Anchorage is happy, I doubt us poor hicks in the north will have much effect. I'm all for trying though, and I applaud those of you who represented Fairbanks at the Carlson Center. I just have little faith that anything will get done outside of the states center of influence.
If you think Anchorage has all of the influence now, see what happens if the capital gets moved there.
As well intentioned as the rally seemed. It was all a fries and a pickle campaign for the bird man. and if you saw the posture of most the state reps they were bored and could not wait to leave. Out with the old in with the new
Let's see what do we have so far...One dude who wants the state to give him my kids. grandkids and so on share of the one time revenues from oil, another fellow wants the govt to pay for his new furnace and rv trip, another lady who absolutely has to drive to Fbks from Eielson 4 times every day. A guy that wants the govt to pay his gas bill since he's chosed to live in Salcha.
The whole country is hurting folks and you're not special. How about we work on the root cause of the problem rather than take our children's share of the one time oil money to pay our bills?
Price of oil is high, why? Experts disagree but the preponderence of evidence is because of the value of the US dollar against other currencies. Why is the dollar in the toilet? Again there is some disagreement but substantial evidence points to the excessive borrowing of the govt (instead of tax and spend Dems we got spend and borrow Repubs). If we can prop up the dollar the whole country wins not just a few folks in Ak who can't drive their gas guzzlers on vacation.
The national govt needs to get their checkbook balanced and we've allowed it to get so far out of balance it's not going to happen without some pain. We can't borrow or spend our way out of this mess.
I sure hope that those with high electric bill aren't using an electric water heater in the hopes of saving on heating oil. The equivelent BTU's in a gallon of heating oil will cost you $7.83 a gallon. I put together a short FAQ on Fairbanks energy at fairbanksgas.com/energy to address some of these questions.
Look - The energy situation is not going to get any better, ever!
The International Energy Agency predicts that petroleum production will decline by 16% over the next 12 years and the world demand for petroleum products will increase 16% during the same time. That means, by 2020 there will be a 32% greater demand for petroleum than there is today.
Demanding short-term relief without a long-term plan only highlights the cry-baby culture we've nestled ourselves into. Stop whinning!
Handing out money for energy assistance is like going to a loan shark for a payday loan. Two weeks later you're still going to be out of money and the situation will only be worse.
1) Invest the Permanent Fund savings into aternative energy sources. Alaska is rich in alternative energy.
2) Conserve energy!
Thanks to everyone that attended last nights meeting!! I am in Galena, and could not attend, but would love to have. Ron Paul has predicted the collapse of our economy, but few choose to listen. Back to OUR problem, I know Gov. Palin at least has read, or reads, or has staffers read this column. She has contributed herself on issues that are brought up here. Please Gov. Palin, as Ladd has said, it is only 90 days until winter is back!! We are not going to make it as a group this winter. At best, it is going to be super ugly! I agree with one poster, and have been saying....I was here in the 80s and this is going to make the mid 80s look like a stroll through the park!!! Please Legislators, hear the voices pleading from the interior. We should not have to beg for OUR cut of the record revenue!!!
I thought Alaskans were supposed to be the most independent and individualistic of all the states. Now all I am hearing is “government save us” and “do something.” How pathetic. There is no energy crisis. Demand, and thus prices, has risen because billions of people have reached out of poverty in China and India. The only crisis in Alaska is one of a lack of individual responsibility and personal finance skills.
Yes there are only 90 days before winter. So plan for it now.
One of the biggest factors contributing to the rising cost of fuel is unscrupulous bankers giving out sub-prime loans. As they were robbing people of their ability to pay for their homes, they sold all those loans in blocks on the world market. Now, investors have turned to a different investment: commodities. Strange, isnt it, that the costs of food and fuel have skyrocketed as people are forced from their homes? Our government still refuses to admit the country is in a recession...
I have repeatedly discussed the idea of a bullet gas line with people in my area, yet I get nothing but blank stares from them; it seems the prevailing attitude of most people is "The government will fix it". I dont know if this is due to blind faith, a healthy dose of propaganda brainwashing, or simply an inability to comprehend issues and consequences, but my advice is the folks here in the interior better hunker down and prepare for the worst, or leave FAST.
Good luck to everyone, the next couple years its gonna get bad. Really bad.
As for Ron Paul, (in case you missed it yeasterday), he has dropped from the presidential race to form a third party:
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/
Like alot of others, i think this man has the right ideas, its too bad he doesnt have more support...
One thing the state could do immediately is to sell royalty oil to residents at below-market prices. Profits would still be considerable, and by lowering the cost of transportation it would have a ripple effect throughout the economy, reducing the cost of building materials and groceries, and more.
I can't wait to see people driving run out of gas park along the highways becuase they had no money to buy the gas, I see into the future.
This should not be about-what are you going to do for me? You are your own person you are responsible for you &your family, If you can not make it through the winter you need to look at your current situation and fix it! I have sold vehicles, went through my house and sold off what I do not need, fixed windows, door seals doing the little things that have got put off. I know that money is not always available and some of the work I could not do alone, so I trade child care, mow the neighbors lawn, or plow the driveway and they help cut wood for us. We work together as neighbors to help each other get by. Look to your neighbors and families and see what YOU can do for THEM cause when it comes down to it they will be the only ones that are going to help you when you need it the most!!
Fairbanks Fuel price for heating oil today $4.41/gallon..this is scary...
Hey Skinfish, if that is your real name, no where in my letter did I say I want the government to pay for my furnace and RV trip. Don't jump to conclusions and put words in my mouth. What I want is for the government to have the backbone to open drilling in ANWR, The western rockies, the continental shelf, and all of the other places where oil is plentiful. I also want us out of the middle east. The only reason oil is so high is that the Arab world wants us out of Iraq, and by cutting production and running the price up they are eventually going to bancrupt the US to the point where we can no longer pay for the war effort and will be forced to leave. Energy costs are affecting every thing we buy. This can't continue. The economy can't last forever in this condition and will eventually come tumbling down. That is what the Arabs want, and that is why oil is so high. The only relationship to supply and demand is they have the supply, and they get the price they demand. We have plenty of domestic oil at our disposal, The government just needs to quit being manipulated by anti-drilling environmentalist rhetoric and let us drill it.
Uh, the legislature during the special session moved a bill to the governor for a nationwide prescription database that will negatively impact a physicians ability to prescribe medicine to patients. See:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12040746...
I understand Ramras, Kelly, Coghill, and others signed it. And you thought the special session was about getting the gas line going!?!?
So you think the legislature will do anything to help Interior residents' heating costs? You'll freeze to death in the dark before these guys will do squat.
I'm moving to wood heat while I can. Wood cutters and delivery services will have a economic boost. Wood and coal will pollute more but the only other choice (if you aren't rich) is to leave. Those are the choices our legislature have left us.
And you folks voted them in. Thanks so much.
We are all going to have to change our ways like it or not. Maybe it isn't a good idea to drive my F-350 V-10 dually as a daily driver. Maybe I don't need my big 460 powered jet boat that might get 2 miles to a gallon. Maybe I don't need a four car garage 4000 square foot house. Maybe I shouldn't buy a $5 mocha every morning. Maybe I shouldn't buy a pack of smokes everyday. It's just going to require change, more like how the old timers lived back in the day, like it or not.
I thought Alaskans were supposed to be the most independent and individualistic of all the states. Now all I am hearing is “government save us” and “do something.” How pathetic. There is no energy crisis.
You are wrong, there IS an energy crisis!! Yes, Alaskans ARE the most independent, hardy Americans going, but we are also the richest. With this windfall, NONE OF US should have to beg for relief!! I am almost a 3 decade Alaskan, and I will survive this downturn, but again, NO ALASKAN should have to beg for their survival. If you are a person of means, good, many Alaskans are. Many of us are not, and we are just as much an Alaskan as those of us that have the nice houses, cars, boats, airplanes, etc. Just because (for whatever reason) we do not have disposable income, we are EQUALLY AS ALASKAN as the rest of us. The guy living out in the bush, raising his family on game meat and clothing his kids with hides (although I only know one guy that still wears hides) that person is still just as much Alaskan as the person in Anchorage, heck, actually he is probably MORE ALASKAN in my eyes. None of us should have to beg. Gov. Palin should be keenly aware of this, just as every other legislator. We should not be the richest state, by far, yet having residents begging for financial relief!!!
este you commented the following; and by lowering the cost of transportation it would have a ripple effect throughout the economy, reducing the cost of building materials and groceries, and more.
I don't think anyone will lower there prices since they have tasted the higher prices. Even "IF" fuel prices were to come down, other excuses would be made to justify why prices for other things would have to stay the same or even go up.
I don't trust our government to take care of us on this issue. We will have to take care of our self. If it hasn't started yet we will soon see 18 wheelers transporting fuel high jacked, homes and businesses and out buildings being pumped dry by thieves. Neighborhoods will have to patrol themselves and take action when needed.
" The only crisis in Alaska is one of a lack of individual responsibility and personal finance skills."
When a budget is made it is calculated on what your income is. This gives you the best idea on what you can afford or not. Some people are better at this than others. Some people (a lot of people) have just enough in their budget to get by. I don't know about you but my pay check didn't triple! Therefore, I am not sure where to come up with the extra money for heating. It doesn't have anything to do with personal finance skills!
I wish that I could have been there last night. I am glad there was such a good turn out. Thanks Fairbanks. It would have been nice to have the meeting a little later so more people could have attended, but I understand you can't please us all.
An Energy Rally in Fairbanks???
...this is a black mark in History.
Too bad this had to happen.
I'm happy everybody came out and showed solidarity.
I'm sad and frustrated, makes me feel terrible.
Years ago I spent several of the best years of my life helping to rebuild Fairbanks after the '67 flood.
Now it's teetering on becoming another ghost town.
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid
HDPE, MDPE, RTP, and GRP Plastic Pipe is going to be 90% of the cardiovascular system of Alaska, just 5% is the Superior Vena Cava.
Alaska can do just fine without an export line, and so can the rest of North America too.
The American market for traditional sources of hydrocarbon is rapidly changing.
It's now easier to get very large amounts of gas&oil from Americas garbage dumps than to drill in ANWR.
http://www.globalresourcecorp.com/Engine...
Does Canada really need Alaska's gas for their OilSands disaster??
NO... NOPE... NOT!!!
Washing OilSands with Alaska's Gas will release billions of tons of pollutants into the atmosphere TOTALLY UNNECESSARILY.
http://www.globalresourcecorp.com/Applic...
..
There are many many emerging technologies that will push back the myth of "Peak Oil" 400 or 4000 years.
No Kidding...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...
..
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=...
..
I really have no axe to grind about the AGIA. I try really hard to avoid politics.
Sometimes the best laid plans of Mice & Men...
TAPS seemed like a good idea at the time too..
it brought nearly equal measures good and bad to Alaska.
Alaska has changed a lot over the years, but has it really changed for the better overall?..
..some here, some there.
I'm willing to help get Alaskans in touch with the gas in our own back yard, whether it's gas from Prudhoe, TananaFlats, NenanaFlats, Glenallen, CBM anywhere there's coal, SynGas from microwaving Coal, or piping LRCWF from the mill to the boilers.
Don't forget the miles & miles of polypipe needed for moving freshwater and geothermal too.
I've spent some time building a list of global sources for all parts of the polypipe industry..
and I can help expedite timely delivery of the materials to quickly build the first little LPG-gasline south over the Brooks Range.
It's time for Alaska to stand on it's own without depending on too many outside corporations to build an enduring architecture that is unique to Alaska and custom fit for the Big Dipper.
.....flash/rumble
Great to see so many organized last night!
It would be fruitful to organize some thoughts here as well:
1. What are the individual problems? (as I read through these comments I see a conglomerate of issues: fuel prices, heating oil, state not listening to the people it represents, etc. )
2. What are the proposed solutions? (we should refuse political rhetoric that limits solutions to these problems – as Alaskans we need to think outside the box here a little)
Obviously one gentlemen here has a point with his gas line proposal. Let’s get some folks to evaluate that.
There is most likely not one solution that will fit all – let’s share our ideas and proposed solutions with others and let them choose what will fit their lifestyle.
3. Who can evaluate the solutions as viable or not. Certainly individuals, but what professionals in town can pipe up and show true pros-cons of the proposed ideas?
4. How soon do we need solutions – what are REAL long term and short term solutions?
For instance:
(a) In relation to home heating –
SHORT TERM: Perhaps we need to work together as small communities to begin getting wood for winter. Sound absurd – don’t have time? You’ll have time when your home starts to freeze and you have no other options, or when you are forced to either leave the state or move in with a family member. This might be a short term solution (for this winter only)
OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS: (ie next year) What solutions can be in place, can we transition over to coal in a cost effective manner. Perhaps over the next year, an investor and fabircator get together and start producing wood/coal boilers – in FAIRBANKS!
Perhaps wood pellet stoves are the answer – pellets can be made from virtually any fibrous material and burned extremely efficiently and cleanly. As I understand it the three machines that are necessary to make the pellets cost less than $20k combined. As I understand it there is currently one individual, I believe in Delta Junction looking at making pellets.
LONG TERM: The boilers fabricated here in Fairbanks easily convert to gas, when the pipeline comes in.
****I AM NOT SAYING WHAT I WROTE IS THE SOLUTION***** ,
Only an example of brainstorming some ideas.
(b) In relation to auto-fuel
Not sure… I have some thoughts, but we need to sit down and look at options.
BOTTOM LINE:
Continuing to rant and rave over the situation will only bring frustration upon frustration.
Let’s get organized and find some solutions. We’ve got a wonderful city full of smart, hard-working, loyal Americans… ALASKANS!
I propose someone host a board on the internet where, having identified individual problems, solutions can be formed discussed and moderated (to keep it objective and not politically driven), without ranting and raving!
Who will step up to host/webmaster such a forum?
(it would be great if the Borough did, but not likely)
-Matt Elroy
Good points -Matt Elroy
try Justin at www.fairbanksgas.com
If you have ideas to share, he can post relevant web-links on his website.
Maybe-Maybe you can write your own webpage using a web-publishing utility or software, with his permission you can email the file to him and he can publish it for you with his webhost after he scans it for viruses and trojans and malware,etc.
Pellet Mills???
http://www.usedmills.net/
...and I'll try to help where I can too.
......splash/bubble
I too lived through the ’67 flood; it showed what the members of this community could accomplish with very little outside help. We came together and solved problem after problem and came through it a stronger, better community. As stated above, we need to create a forum that can speak as a single voice to those who hold sway over the resources that must be applied to accomplish the goal… which ever that forum decides is the best. Tell me where to sign up, I am from here, used to hard work and long hours, I just need to know were to start.
Matt Elroy---
Jim Foley might wanna strangle me for this...
...but, then again, maybe not
Does Fairbanks need a quick energy forum??
Here's a handy one that's already going in a very similar theme..
Alaska Building Forum
http://bb.bbboy.net/alaskagoldforum-view...
The theme of this forum should be able to cover all residential aspects of the Fairbanks energy problem..
energy efficient architecture, alt-energy, etc.
Quite often the moderator allows plenty of off-topic stuff..
this is a well managed forum of very level headed and well mannered adults and nice young folks who all have very useful knowledge and experience to share.
It's possible to expand this forum into a separate topic of Alaska Energy Design and Technology once the membership jumps.
This one of the best forums you'll see on the web.
===
For general info on new energy tech, try this...
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Pa...
......flash/buzz-zz--zz--zzz-zzz
[I'm arc-welding, not sleeping]
Go Distant Thunder go!! I can hear your distant rumbles all the way down here in southeast.. I think you have a LOT of ideas and with so many some are bound to be good ones. The main thing is this energy "problem" is totally new because now we are connected to the global economy. I still say we need to start putting serious money (Say 500M to start) getting a Susitna sized project online. It is probably the one energy source that can't be linked to the world market, because electricity must be used the instant it is generated and thus can't be exported in a pipe or on a ship. Thus it will stay at 9 cents a kwh while fossil fuels will always be at the whim of commodity traders the world over.
Thanks akbearable....
I might be a pretty fart smeller, but I don't always impress all of the girls.
Is there a law somewhere that spells out that we are compelled to be connected to the global economy?..
..or is it a situation where there's a million little bureaucratic advisory codes that by convention steers us in that direction?
http://www.stock-market-crash.net/tulip-...
Is this death by a thousand cuts?
or insanity by a thousand nuts?
Take Venezuela for example, how much do I pay to fill the tank of my '59 Cadillac in Caracas?
[not that I think it's a good idea to drive a gashog]
Or, I've got 50acres on Kenai, and I spent the extra $1500 to buy the rights to the CBM beneath my land..
then I punch a 200' deep waterwell with my primitive homemade well puncher jig..
then I decide to trade a bunch of my extra gas to my neighbors for moosemeat, fish, and blueberries...
...can I get thrown in jail for doing that???
Why do we allow ourselves to be deranged enough to want to monetarize all 16quadrillion tons of planet earth into 16quadrillion tons of money??
Would somebody in Juneau try to pass a law to keep me from selling wood-fired or electric trucks because it would hurt state revenues??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSgL0Ie4z...
I for one only engage in magical thinking because I can't afford my health insurance...
and more people die in hospitals than anywhere else.
I'll go to a doctors office to borrow his equipment in trade for some fish, but I rarely go to get his opinion.
....ok, so I obviously think like I'm old-skool 1stNations.
I'm proudly 25% Athabaskan, and 50% Russi-Uke, and 25% Space Alien.
If Dr.Randall Mills came to Anchorage and gave a presentation to CommonwealthNorth about how to easily get 1000gallons of oil equivalent energy from a gallon of seawater, would some oily-bigwig call the cops and have him arrested before he could fly back to NewJersey???
http://www.blacklightpower.com/
What's the best way to sustain revenues for the State?
1st.. Put the State budget in Quickbooks and publish it in realtime on the net for everyone to see.
2nd..Get the fuels to Alaskans at the cheapest possible price..
[ok to ration/control overconsumption and obvious fuel wasting, and fuel smuggling]
Promote energy-efficiency...
...then use an export-tax for mid to large out of state exports...
small sales under $10k/month exempt.
..other exemptions might apply too.
==
I'm not real keen on damming the Susitna to make a big reservoir for a number of practical reasons like earthquakes for one.
It would be more fun to put a lot of these on the river and make power and gold too...
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Z...
There's plenty of ways to get big-hydropower out of the YukonRiv too, without building a big dam across it.
.......do I get tar & feathered yet???........(;-P)
......clash/mumble
No DT, no tar and feathers from me. As for your 50 acres on the Kenai, do you own the mineral rights? Petroleum rights? As for Susitna, I did phrase it as "a Susitna sized project" which doesn't necessarily mean the Big Su. I do think we need a big project powered by gravity in order to assure the people of the state don't keep getting raped over by big industry whose only intent is to make as much money as absolutely possible for themselves. Can Alaska have a Venezuela style of subsidy just for the citizens of Alaska? I don't know. It would certainly help if Alaska were an independent country, but alas Jumpin Joe Vogler has left and gone away. I know that the Permanent fund dividends has caused the state lots of problems in the public opinion across the US as well as drawing people to move up here for the handout. I don't know if the state could sell Alaskans $1.50 gas and heating fuel without unforeseen consequences. One thing for sure is we need to think outside the box, and you certainly do that Distant Thunder!
Reread your last post DT and saw you did buy the P-rights to your theoretical 50 acres.. sorry about my comment.
Well....geeezsch!!!!!
I was hoping somebody would tar&Feather me before next winter because the way things are going that's gonna be the only way I'm gonna avoid getting frostbite again....
...where's that dang bus-ticket to CostaRica ???
Maybe I'll just have to hitch-hike and sneak across the border into Mexico again.
Seriously, I'm all ears here....
I'm thinking about posting ads in craigslist looking for investors for a big unique business opportunity..
"Building the First Gasline over the Brooks"
Do ya think if everybody in Fairbanks posted the same ad in craigslists worldwide it would smoke craigslist's server-computer??
Maybe if a collection of us all applied for the $5mil AIDEA community loan packages, then pooled them all together ???
Geez... we all gotta go tip grandmas couch over and look for buffalohead-nickels???
I'll do my best to help get the best deals on the equipment and materials sourced for the project...
but I can't do it on my good looks alone.
Dialing for Dollars... Ringy Dingy, Ringy Dingy, Ringy Dingy
.........smash/stumble
Distant Thunder...
WOW - Never saw the YouTube video re: the wood gas truck.
I'm sold... will start researching the same process using lump coal TONIGHT!
Glad to hear there was a good turnout for the rally wish i could have made it. So i take from a comment above the windbags seemed bored and wanted to leave why dont that suprise me. I say we move the govenors mansion here and all the winbags and make them pay what we pay for heat and fuel gurantee the crisis would be resolved. If they had the high bills like we do you can bet your behind something would get done. But you know the old saying out of site out of mind i am not betting on any of them doing squat for us they just want to wait and find some other stupid idea to spend all that oil royalty money on. Thats the only way they are happy screwing us and satisfying themselves. If the people on here can post all these great ideas why cant the windbags figure something out have any of them ever tried to contact Distant Thunder he seems to have some good ideas i also see some good post's from fairbanksgas. But like i have said before if the windbags could solve the crisis then they would lose out on all that money along with gvea and you can bet they would not want that. Well i have used all my allowed electricity for the day so you all have a good one
family_reformer....
...you'll like my fuel reformer.
There's an old movie starring Tab Hunter, where he's in a hurry to evade the invading Japs in the Philippines, so he rescues his girlfriend by quickly converting an old bus to burn coconut husks for fuel...
it your case it's the approaching winter.
When burning lump coal in a downdraft gasifier it's important to use good furnace refractory in the hearth because it will melt steel.
...and you'll want to add an HHO-booster to keep your emissions low enough to keep from getting a ticket.
Coal gasification can be widely scalable in size when using microwaves..
http://www.globalresourcecorp.com/Engine...
...rather than having a big woodstove attached to your bumper you can hide a microwave coal gasifier under your hood if your rig is a pre-80's truck with a couple extra cubic feet in the engine compartment.
CoalWater can be made to work miracles in engines and turbines..
I have a handy onboard on-the-fly fuel-reformer design that modifies Coal-Water LRCWF to make it burn amazingly well in jet aircraft..
..but I am loathe to make it public until the US-Congress signs a ton of military restraint treaties, such as banning cluster-bombs, use of poison gas, depleted uranium, etc, etc, etc,.....ad nauseum.
This fuel costs 25cents a gallon to make...
but until humans quit acting like deranged animals, and can fire up the courage to throw whole governments in the looney-bin and keep them there, I refuse to play with the pirates.
Every puzzledunce since Jimmy Carter should go join Ronnie Raygun..
..but they'd try to fake their Seppuku too.
Visualize Whirled Peas
Okie doke, DT, seems like I'm not the only one who thinks you've got some brilliant and viable ideas.
But you can't do it alone. Understood.
Nor should you have to.
Sadly, I agree that we'll all be frozen carcasses by the time Juneau gets around to acknowledging that those of us living north of the Alaska Range have got some real issues going on here.
The hell with them.
I'm getting the feeling that most of us posting here kinda get the drift that Juneau isn't going to come through for us in anywhere near the timeframe that we need them to. So like I said, the hell with them.
DT, you've got the vision. FairbanksGas, you've got the communication and organization skills. The rest of us have the very urgent *need.*
What can we do for ourselves? The very best thing is to not wait for anyone else who doesn't feel our respective pain to come to our rescue. They simply don't understand. So, for us to wait for them is foolish.
Anyone out there good with finance? Myself, I could realistically pool $500 into a relief project. Not too much more. Myself, alone, that's a pathetic pittance.
But in numbers there is power. How many others of us could fork up $50, $100, $500, $1000 to secure our future energy needs? The answer? Thousands upon thousands of us. So, we need to organize, and not wait for our state, or the feds, to step up to the plate. Like I said, by the time they do so, by the time they even realize that they need to, we'll long be gone - moved out of state, or frozen to death. Frankly, I'm not too thrilled with either option.
In order to make a local "collective" like this work, we need people who are good with numbers. Money numbers (myself, I can do integral calculus and solve differential equations, but ask me to balance my checkbook, aargh!) Finance. People with investment smarts.
We need people who are good with haggling with minutiae, i.e. petty regulations that all the naysayers will try to use to stop us from achieving our objective - which is trying to help ourselves when no one else seems to recognize our dire need. We need environmental engineers, paralegals, and lawyers who can haggle through NEPA, FEMA and other time-consuming, resource-dwindling regulations that, at worst, only seem to fatten the bureaucracy without getting anything worthwhile and productive accomplished. Trust me, I believe in the underlying principles of NEPA. They are admirable. But I've also seen many, many thousands of dollars wasted at the mere whim and fancy of some clueless DEC or EPA bureaucrat, and with this particular issue, it's just something we CANNOT afford, time-wise, more than anything. So, we need people who can work the regs, who can work the permit angle so that we can make real progress in moving forward and meeting our own needs without having the national guard show up at our proverbial doorstep, armed, and ready to stop us on behest of the feds.
We need engineers of all kinds. Mechanical, electrical, civil, industrial, environmental, to work out the kinks with the numbers, with the designs, with the construction.
And by God, we need construction workers, equipment operators, welders, concrete finishers, mechanics, surveyors, fuelers, truck drivers, and helicopter pilots. At the end of the day, these are the ones who turn any design into an actual, finished, and usable product.
We need EMTs, firefighters, and paramedics on standby.
And it sure wouldn't hurt to have a competent chef and wait staff on hand, either.
Thing is, WE HAVE GOT ALL THAT WE NEED - *NOW* - TO ACCOMPLISH THIS. ON OUR OWN. WITH NO HELP FROM ANY GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY.
If we look at ourselves as a whole, and recognize the fabulous diversity of our training, skills, and experience, we can do this. On our own. With nothing but our own resources at our disposal. Without Juneau, and *certainly* without Washington D.C.
All we really have to do is organize ourselves.
So let's do it, huh?
Cuz from the way it looks like now, no one else is going to do it for us.
OK, LadyNYC you seem to be the in the mood of passionate interlocutor today....(;-P)
Thanks for the teamwork!!!!
http://anchorage.craigslist.org/
Let's see you [and everybody] write a craigslist ad looking for investors in this biz opportunity... maybe some weekend hobbyists from Gazprom will wanna play "toy-gasline" with us??
or maybe now that Bill Gates is spending too much time around the house Melinda will kick his butt out the back door onto the oyster beach scolding him to go play with DistantBlunder and his friends, but come back home by July 4th with a freezer full of fish..??
or maybe Paul Allen and VulcanVentures is getting second thoughts about big-biodiesel and is looking for some propane to power his new lodge on Kodiak??
......ya never really know whutt you'll find in the classifieds until you advertise.
Maybe if everyone in Fairbanks started writing craigslist ads for our happy little gasline it would create an internet sensation where we'd have to be choosing the best offer from 10,000 potential investors worldwide??
Everybody get's a big wet kiss from me..
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid
.........this will keep the costs down
Every good adventure in Alaska happens with well planned logistics.
I have a feeling if I just glued together 818,000 feet of 4"plastic-pipe together in the middle of winter -40F with the help of 10 friends who live north of the Yukon..
..the bigwigs will stop their insane self-indulgent weirdness for a while and actually try to help.. ahem,"corporate public relations" looks good in National Geographic.
1636 500' long coils of 4"PE100
Takes 1man, 1hr, for 1joint-fusion
set up 8pipeyards filled with 50 2000' long sections each
pull them all 409-sections into position with bulldozers on the snow
====
..........flash/rumble
Like I said, I don't have investment, finance skills.
Sure, I can put an ad on craigslist, but what should it say?
Okay, it'll start off something like, "looking for local investors to build a 4" hdpe lng pipeline in remote Alaska to supply Interior residents with affordable energy."
I get stuck at that point. I wouldn't know how to structure something like this, financially. All I know is that if enough of us pooled our money together, we could really make this happen. 50 bucks here, and a 1000 bucks there, from a *lot* of people, could get the ball rolling.
I also know that I'd want to make something like this is legit, above board. I'd want to be able to assure folks that their investment is protected, somehow. That if we can't raise the required capital to pull this project off, that their $$$ will be returned to them.
I don't know what the minimum dollar amount would be to get things started, nor the dollar amount to keep it moving forward. How much would 8 pipeyards of materials cost? How much to keep you and your ten friends north of the Yukon warm and fed? How much for the bulldozers on the snow? How much for logistics, transportation costs? How much for bail money to get you guys out once the feds haul your butts off to jail? I'm kind of being facetious about that last item, but ya know, you've got to cover contingencies.
I think you might have a point about being able to shame the state into pitching in if you managed to get your 818,000 feet of pipe glued together in the dead of winter. "Might" being the operative word. Winter is only 90, 100 days away. There's lots of talk, lots of hot air, coming from Juneau, but so far, nothing concrete, nothing in place that addresses our 90-day window.
So, before I'd ever ask people to invest their hard earned money on craigslist or any other venue, I'd want a rock solid plan in place, first. And as for that, I don't even know where to begin.
Seasoned old biz people know that walking out of the bank with a million bucks is like jumping out of an airplane high above the wilderness..
..the big blue sky is great for the first few minutes, but you better plan for the long walk home.
Try reading this article by Jim Crawford for some perspective...
http://www.thecordovatimes.com/news/stor...
Yeah, collecting nickles&dimes from everybody in Fairbanks is doable in a totally transparent and computerized way..
...I have some homebased CPA friends who can help with that.
But looking for angels in craigslist is more fun than lobbying Juneau.. and making Juneau jealous is like stampeding demented buffalo.
Plan on taking a vacation to CostaRica this winter...
or fill your truck with coal.
I hear rumors of a big boat hauling a load of propane from Prudhoe to Kotzebue and Nome this summer.
...or maybe get some neighbors together and buy yourself a LPG-bobtail 3000gallon truck. You can drive this truck to Prudhoe and get it filled with raw-gas for cheap [or free if you wear some perfume].
...if you really dig into my archives I describe how to work a truckload of raw-gas into a truckload of propane.. it takes a couple weeks, but you'll get a lot of sightseeing done.
.....flash/mumble
Good things happening in here,the thing to remember is to include and encourage all regions of the state to get on the bandwagon otherwise the urban apathy to this real crisis will continue to strangle the rest of us.
A virtual "Bush Caucus" is needed to keep the kettle boiling, it cannot survive on a purely regional basis.
The Pribilofs, Nikolski, Metlakatla, Angoon, Sand Point, Port Lions, Naknek, Cordova, all must be encouraged to enter the fray for an internet onslaught of solidarity in order to get and hold their attention.
Too many legislators are walking around in la la land with their supposed next big boom project at hand...
Feet to the fire, feet to the fire. It's the only way.
About to head into the office for a couple of hours, but keep wondering . . .
DT, you talk about transporting fuel through a pipe. Great ideas, too. But what about the supply, the source? I know the producers on the slope aren't going to just let us tap into their fields out of the kindness of their hearts. You've got a delivery system worked out, but what how do we get secure access to the fuel to begin with? Anyone?
Also, how to work out a fair and equitable arrangement to any potential investors? What exactly is their investment buying them? It's fair, in a capitalistic way, that those who invest more get greater returns. Sad thing is, those who can't invest much probably have the greater need. The only thing my simplistic money mind can think of is to think of these potential investments as a start-up loan. Once our pipeline produces, revenues received can be applied to repaying those investments/loans and to maintaining/operating the pipeline. Once all the investors get paid off, then have the fuel price pretty much limited - capped - to sell for what it costs to produce and transport it.
CRR - very valid point about the need to engage the Bush. Fairbanks is the only major city in this state that has an urgent need for fuel prices to get under control. All of rural Alaska has that same need. Juneau and Anchorage just aren't hurting the way the rest of the state is. Too bad, cuz that's where all the money and political power is concentrated.
Was it in some other thread? Someone mentioned existing ROW along TAPS. If we laid our interior fuel line right down next to it, would much of the potential regulatory/permitting issues be avoided?
Basically what we're doing here with this little toy-gasline is the job ANGDA is supposed to be doing...
...but they're lock step with AGIA, and they want us all to believe the Earth is Flat too.
http://www.angda.state.ak.us/
Selling Stock in a project is a big stack of paperwork, but it's done millions of times a day worldwide. ==Securities Exchange Commission
"Paralytic Pecuniary Poisioning"
Running a Raffle is usually fun & legal...
Getting a closely held loan from a private investor is much more screamlined-streamlined... works great with vodka.
Believe it or not just $10million could nearly complete my little gas-noodle with no frosting on the cake..
bare-bones with no helicopters
..just frostbite on my fingers and face.
China&Russia has deep pockets now, and they love a good gamble.
I might even be able to wangle some freezer-ship shipments of BakedAlaska methane hydrate to Qingdao for the college kids to make novelty dessert items with.
Getting Prudhoe to fart loose with some propane?
Last time I was at Prudhoe we were just turning on the electric lights for the first time there.
I'll go ripoff some boilerplate that has been previously used to give-away our RoyaltyOil to other private scammers..
The AOGCC looks tough, but they're gullible as heck...
...if you'll believe the line of bull that comes out of a Texan,
you'll be genuinely frightened at the spook show movies too.
Wait until you see the worldwide video documentary of "the little gas-hose that could".
Stalin intentionally engineered a famine in Ukraine in 1932 that killed millions...
...and Juneau would do the same to you just to keep control of a $trillion[2007]-- $50billion[2020] worth of soon to be nearly worthless gas.
All of Juneau is fed Pat answers to their parroted-pecuniary questions and have been Galvin-ized to be adherents to the Golden-Cow while the RevverNew Commissioner grinds his molars all night sweating bulletlines and solid platinum custody-meters.
Soon there will be more big tall cumulus clouds heading north thru Anaktuvuk Pass, more energetic unprecedented lightning will hurl thunderbolts down upon the warming gas filled tundra, great fires will engulf vast areas of once pristine wilderness..
there are many shallow high pressure bubble gasfields in the foothills and on the slope..
dumping the gas on the market 10years ago will have averted two huge manmade catastrophes, famine and wild arctic gasfield Krakatoa.
And, no doubt The History Channel will screw it all up by calling it an act of Nature.
......flash/rumble
From what I have read here, getting LPG to a delivery point is doable. So how a bought this, Run the plastic pipe to the most accessible road point near Fairbanks and create a tank fill station. Find a source for the best priced tanks and heater units that can be set up for indoor use this winter. Then you have a non hard line system of delivery for the short term need coming this winter and most likely next. After that need is covered by a N.G. line, those tanks and heater units can be used in remote locations for the rest of their useful lives. Supplement this with a propane fueled delivery truck fleet leased to the operators of this system (US) to full in place the tanks that are not portable and return them when the need ends. Seems the cheap and effective answer. Thoughts?
Jeez, I never even heard of ANGDA until you mentioned it, DT. I clicked on the link you posted.
Forget about them. One look at where their office is located says it all. And in case you're skeptical, just read the mission statement (http://www.angda.state.ak.us/Quick%20Lin...).
ANGDA: Alaska Natural Gas Development Authority.
The real deal? Substitute "Anchorage" for "Alaska" and then you get the picture. Their mission statement:
"Develop a natural gas pipeline from Prudhoe Bay to tidewater on Prince William Sound and a spur line to the gas distribution grid in Southcentral, Alaska."
This shows that they're only interested in NG distribution in MatSu Borough and Kenai Peninsula. Pretty much nowhere else. I think it's pretty outrageous that they have the nerve to refer to themselves as a state organization, which presumably is for the benefit of ALL Alaskans, not just those living in Southcentral.
But a glimmer of light - I could be totally wrong. My computer is ancient, and for some reason, I can't open pdf documents. There were a number of pdf's on the ANGDA website that I couldn't read, so maybe there *is* something in the works for creating additional spur lines that would benefit the Interior. Somehow I doubt it, though. We would have heard about it by now.
Yeah, I really do need a to be on a different computer if I'm going to take a close look at the ANGDA website. Most of it is links to pdf's. Like I said before, one thing I'd like to know is if there are any plans to create any other spurs besides the one going to Southcentral. Another critical question for us Interior residents is schedule, timeline. If they're a state agency well, we all know the term "speed of government." And we can't wait that long.
But still, it's real good to know that an organization like this exists, so once again, DT, thanks for your input. They've already addressed a number of issues that we would have to for our 4" pipeline.
The framework's already there, now all they have to do is expand their scope (enormously) and speed up their schedule (tremendously) to be of any benefit to us.
And that's where maybe our local governments can step up to the plate. Get the North Slope, Yukon-Koyukuk, and Fairbanks North Star Borough involved, as well as the Cities of Fairbanks and North Pole, and all the town, village and tribal governments as well. Copper River Red said something about putting feet to the fire, and our regional governments could do a lot in that regard. If we citizens put *their* feet to the fire.
Alan Staats, I nominate you for today's KISS award (keep it simple, stupid - although I'd omit the word stupid).
What you suggested could totally work by December of this year. We could have NG tank trucks running up and down the Dalton. We'd only need a very short piece of pipeline if Deadhorse were chosen as the location for the tank fill station. The shorter the pipe, though, the more expensive the transportation/delivery costs of driving those trucks over long distances. Which would significantly offset any real savings obtained from using NG to begin with. Maybe running the pipe past the Brooks Range and having the tank fill station somewhere south of that would be better, economically, but still do-able in the short term. I don't know, though. I don't have any numbers to look at. Even if I did, there's way too much about this industry I have no real knowledge of, so I doubt I'd make an effective number cruncher on this issue.
. . . but, the "Anchorage" Natural Gas Development Authority has a staff of number crunchers, I'm sure. Maybe we could get our local governments to transfer the office of the ANGDA to the greater Fairbanks area, where it could do more good for our region. Let the capitol stay in Juneau, or move it to Anchorage for all the good it'll do us in the Interior, but the ANGDA would likely serve all of the state's people far better in Fairbanks than it currently does in Anchorage.